A>...to suggest that the human psyche, confronted with the Divine presence without being built up to sustain that impact, can fragment.
D> I don't buy it, at least not in those terms. This sort of thing makes for impressive sermons, but it does not correspond to the Divine reality that I have experienced.
A> Then you're lucky. Well, I've been rethinking this myself, mostly because I realized that in other contexts I make a big deal about the "dangers" of confronting the Divine. So why was I so critical of the dangers espoused by Paul and others?
D> A major reason, I beleive is that I was taking their statements too literally. I can't take the image of God as a high voltage line seriously. For that matter, I find myself more and more dissatisfied the electrical metaphor that so permeates modern discussions of magic. Words such as "charging," "grounding," and "energy" capture only one side -- and not the most important side -- of ritual work. My over literal reading of their posts conjured up a ridiculous image in my mind, which I emphatically rejected.
Let me say instead that the dangers of encounter with the Divine are not electrical, but rather are moral and intellectual. If one demands a relationship with Deity which exceeds one's moral maturity, one does indeed face serious risks. I suspect that most of these risks are related to self-deception and self-indulgence, but I suppose that in extreme cases the damage to the personality could be more rapid. All this, of course, presumes a basically healthy psyche.
On the other hand, approaching Deity often feels much more dangerous than it is. We are likely to feel a great deal of fear as our pretensions and denials are stripped away by the approach of the Divine presence. This feeling of fear is necessary and good, but it is fear of change as much as fear of real danger.
A> Traumatic not just for the unwilling. I recently had a priestess of mine who did the Drawing Down for the first time and she was profoundly disturbed by it. Not in an unple-asant way, but she's well trained and she still found the whole experience hard to deal with on an emotional level. Some people can shrug it off, others find it hard to incorp-orate into themselves. Kinda like losing one's virginity...
D> I wasn't thinking that "emotionally hard to deal with" was what Paul et al. meant by "zapped" or "crispy." Certainly such experiences can be emotionally hard to deal with (although I have never found them so myself).
A> To be blunt, bullsh*t. Sure it can. The Gods sometimes force us to prove our mettle, *especially* if we ask them to. If we are strong enough, fine. If not...
D> Prove our mettle at what exactly? Lightning bolts at fifty paces? I probably agree with you, but I reject the idea that we are tested like transistors -- turn on the juice and throw away the ones that burn out.
A> Besides, the biggest danger isn't in the presence of the Divine. It's when the mage/ priest *thinks* the Divine is there and is deluded. The unconscious mind will happily produce all sorts of fantasies if you ask.
D> This I agree with 100%
A> It isn't a case of how effective the participants are, rather, how ineffective. Delusion is a stock in trade for the occult arts.
D> Here you seem to have come around to my side. Most dangers come not from the presence of the Gods, but rather from their absence. An imaginary power line isn't dangerous, but an imaginary like with God/dess is.
The zapped or crispy metaphor (hmmm, more Divine Electricity imagery) could include "emotional discomfort," though I find that to be so basic an element in dealing with Divine encounters (in my *vast* experience (g)), as the ego tries to relate to what has just happened, that I don't really consider it at issue.
Someone who shrugs and mutters "No big deal," whether they've Drawn Down a God for the first or five hundredth time has more of a problem, in my arrogant opinion, than someone who throws shrieking fits in the wake of the experience (assuming they get to stop screaming, eventually).
Yes, the crispness of the unprepared is, in fact, a metaphor for psychological disintegra-tion, an explosion of "mundane consciousness" in the wake of an experience which blows the underpinnings out from under it. In a not uncommon example, priesthood who begin to expect, to demand, the reverence shown them when they are vessels of the Divine be shown them when they are not exercising their theurgic office. Whether it is a Wiccan HPS or a Catholic monsignor (or what you will), this is a typical poison that can breed in the wake of the Divine invocation.
Psychically, the Gods ARE high-voltage lines, whether you accept them as "real" or "mere archetypes," or whatever. They, by definition, function on a level of conscious-ness that is tremendously potent in the context of day-to-day awareness. And they may be as solicitous of humans as a human is when caring for a small and fragile animal, but They also do not exercise the same controls on humans that humans do on animals, and rarely force us to turn away from danger, though They try and protect us when we think to ask for it.
The fact that humanity contains (in my view) Divine potential in its own right allows for humans to confront Deity on its own plane, even at the cost of the present incarnation.
In the presence of the Goddess, Paul Hume said to Dan Holdgreiwe:
PH> The zapped or crispy metaphor (hmmm, more Divine Electricity imagery) could include "emotional discomfort," though I find that to be so basic an element in dealing with Divine encounters (in my *vast* experience (g)), as the ego tries to relate to what has just happened, that I don't really consider it at issue.
Really? My own experience has included more than a little emotional discomfort, but almost all of it was in those periods when I wasn't receiving palpable confirmation that the work was accomplishing anything. Breaking through to the Divine, on the other hand, is usually a joyful, ecstatic experience for me.
Part of this may be training (I spent about 10 unpleasant but productive years under the discipline of a very demanding spiritual group) and part of it may be a matter of pre-stripping the ego in anticipation of contact with the Divine (a less than common practice among Pagans, who tend to be suspicious of anything that smacks of humility-).
PH> Someone who shrugs and mutters "No big deal," whether they've Drawn Down a God for the first or five hundredth time has more of a problem, in my arrogant opinion, than someone who throws shrieking fits in the wake of the experience (assuming they get to stop screaming, eventually).
I would agree, but I find the more common reaction to be along the lines of "Oh, wow!" or even "Mmmmmmmmmmm, yes!" Perhaps this means I'm not "plugged in" to the high-amp Deities (like maybe Cthulu).
On a more serious note, I probably use an egregore that mediates the relationship with God/dess in ways that make screaming fits less likely -- thought I suppose it could be disputed whether this was good or bad.
PH> Yes, the crispness of the unprepared is, in fact, a metaphor for psychological disintegration, an explosion of "mundane consciousness" in the wake of an experience which blows the under pinnings out from under it. In a not uncommon example, priest- hood who begin to expect, to demand, the reverence shown them when they are vess-els of the Divine be shown them when they are not exercising their theurgic office. Whether it is a Wiccan HPS or a Catholic monsignor (or what you will), this is a typical poison that can breed in the
wake of the Divine invocation.
Ah, this is where your metaphor confuses me. You speak of an "explosion" but your example is more akin to a cancer -- not a dramatic shattering of the personality, but a gradual corruption. The latter is a danger that I readily acknowledge.
PH> Psychically, the Gods ARE high-voltage lines, whether you accept them as "real" or "mere archetypes," or whatever. They, by definition, function on a level of conscious-ness that is tremendously potent in the context of day-to-day awareness.
PH> The fact that humanity contains (in my view) Divine potential in its own right allows for humans to confront Deity on its own plane, even at the cost of the present incarna-tion.
The Lord and Lady are indeed potent, but their energy is wisely controlled. Each of us, however, is a high-voltage line in much less capable hands. I believe it is not God/dess, but our own Divine potential which will "zap" us if we are careless in its use.
Blessed Be, Dan Holdgreiwe
Keywords: illusion wiccan altar ancient secrets from solitary wicca black knowledge lucid charmed witches wiccans babylonian assyrian nature deos mean
